I struggle to really take people seriously, when they seek to gain metaphysical insight or spiritual liberation and yet continue to eat meat. The monks of the Benedictine tradition, members of the Sangha, Pythagoreans, gnostic sects like the Cathars, Vaishnavite households, Jainist practitioners, they all have a simple rule: They don’t eat meat.
Eating meat generates enormous attachment to the here and now, to the notion of the self. It inflates the ego and creates a barrier between yourself and the non-human world, which does not operate under human logic. But many people will take ayahuasca, smoke salvia, travel to Tibet, join secret societies, they will do all these things, except just trying for a month to live without eating any meat and seeing how it makes them feel. You can not even properly take ayahuasca when you do not follow a meat-free diet for a few days beforehand. But people don’t connect the dots it seems.
“Well I tried veganism and it makes me depressed!” Good. When you are depressed you are healing the world, as opposed to consuming it. This is just reality invading a mind that has blocked it out for a long time. The misery is drawn away from your external world towards your internal world, where it will reside in the abstract and where your mind can process it. What did you think it would look like? A kind of “eureka!” moment of ecstasy? Do you think people retreat from the world into monasteries and hermit shelters because they have more fun there?
Eating meat liberates you from having to understand the world, thereby it provides great joy, as now you dominate the world instead. It is a tamasic food for this reason. But in case you hadn’t noticed it yet in recent days, what dominates the world in our era is characterized by understanding nothing and thereby causing great suffering to others.
This is the iceberg model of reality. There is a small happy top of human beings, their weight held up by vast numbers of suffering beings. Meat is the most pure personification of this, it is directly ingesting death, although it is tied to most of the things we consume. The supply chains are filled with child labor and human slavery, even the coconuts we eat are harvested by enslaved monkeys.
If you feel depressed, what I recommend is to go out to a quiet spot in nature, the weather should be nice now. I hope none of you have to search long to find a quiet spot. Then, when the sun shines directly upon your face, you should sit down in Padmasana, the Lotus position, if you can. Otherwise you can just sit in the Sukhasana position.
Then close your eyes and let your attention wander to those parts of your brain that need your attention the most. Allow the sensations that are piled up there to release themselves, like sediment from behind a dam, that is released with a bit of effort to open the dam and destabilize it. You will then sequester the negativity that has invaded your mind, like nature sequesters carbon dioxide for us.
This is what I recommend, more than any drug. I don’t claim to have the answer to everything, but I do claim that it really helps me. As long as cruelty is still being inflicted by humanity on the animals at a massive industrial scale, we can expect that greater and greater cruelty will be inflicted on us humans.
Yeah after you meet a couple of people who are genuinely well-versed in the spiritual and supernatural, and make some effort to get into it yourself, you can’t take these people who treat it like an aesthetic or a cope seriously. Guys who only ever talk about how their life choices are the right ones because they gave them muh spirituality, but never talk about what they actually experienced. No human fascination, no excitement, no interest, just rage and fee fees based on previously established biases.
Whether or not eating various types of meat is wise, in terms of physical and mental health, or moral are separate issues. I used to be a vegetarian for moral reasons but I loved my cats and couldn’t see them as immoral for eating meat, plus I found I could digest some types of meat more easily than vegetable proteins. I don’t support factory farming but I think it’s important to recognize that, as Alan Watts said, “Deciding to live is deciding to kill” and that life, perhaps including all vegetable life, necessarily involves pain and death in any case. So I don’t see anything “wrong” in raising animals humanely, giving them free food and shelter, and then slaughtering them as humanely as possible before they get old and their natural pains set in. Watts also liked to quote a Chinese philosopher who said, “A fish that has died for you and is not well cooked has died in vain.” To me Watts is perhaps the greatest person to date, in terms of the effect his recordings and writings will have on humanity over time.
I love Alan Watts too
Seriously, who eats coconuts?
Btw, Watts was an alcoholic chain smoker. Pick your gurus wisely.
> Btw, Watts was an alcoholic chain smoker. Pick your gurus wisely.
I resemble that comment
I’m not a guru, but I was once a heavy smoker and a heavy drinker.
I haven’t had a drink for months now though, and I quit smoking long ago.
Now I’m as pure as the holy waters of the Ganges.
You are wrong
Give any meat-eater 500 mcg of LSD and they too will have so-called “spiritual experiences.”
You may consider this “artificial” but I assure you it is truly possible to “pry open my Third Eye” (with a crowbar)
https://youtu.be/s9y-caOH46Y?si=CiAp-q5KdwDfy7Ys
You are a zealot for your cause, I get it, but I also intuit you realize these issues are not definitive and are endlessly open to interpretation.
If you were a reductionistic materialist like Inmendham, you might be logically coherent.
But you are not a reductionist materialist. This places you in a tough spot to wriggle out of. There are larger forces in play.
Regarding the horror of animals feeding on other animals, the best explanation of this from a non-dual perspective came from Christopher J. Smith, IMO.
I can’t find the video at the moment, but as I recall, he explained that God/Source had to create the phenomenal universe of spacetime out of itself. There is no creation “ex-nihilo”
So since God/Source only had itself to “work with” it was NECESSARY that all fragments will arise and live, but then must feed upon each other in order to return to Source and keep the equation “equal”.
Laws of Thermodynamics, etc
This idea makes hash of anthropogenic conceptions of “God” as a human Father Figure. (Sorry Karen)
I have found this to be the best explanation of the horrors of our reality from a non-dual perspective.
But then…certain inquisitive individuals…such as myself and Tryptie…might begin to wonder why the balance of experiences is so heavily weighted towards the horrific end of the spectrum?
If you understand, you will open your mind to the vistas of Gnosticsm or other similar views.
Somewhat related:
This is a good explainer video on Schopenhauer.
I came to this same conclusion independently.
If you’re a misanthrope, this just might awaken your compassion for your fellow man. But maybe not.
Worth considering, though.
https://youtu.be/0NBrce-ZHi0?si=0rgJwKH1MZ9YQYEV
Sounds like the narrator has a classic Dutch accent.
Love it.
‘Eating meat liberates you from having to understand the world’
Since no one actually understands the world and probably never will, I interpret this to mean ‘eating meat liberates you from a fool’s errand.’
I’m okay with that.
Eating animals is ugly and cruel. If you don’t want to be a cruel person don’t eat things with the minds of children. You can go round and round arguing about ideology and science and religion but the truth is that the pigs are highly intelligent, social, cute sentient beings who like their bellies rubbed like dogs. If you’re convinced meat has nutrition you can’t get anywhere else eat bivalves, they literally don’t have brains.
Eating animals is simply evil, do not be evil.
#TakeTheEdenPill
Yep. They basically just have the minds of children. I don’t get how people can eat them.
Evil men enslaved animals thousands of years ago and evil men keep them in chains today; nowadays people are willing to eat so much meat because they are disconnected from its production due to the inertia of industry. Normies literally are just not thinking about it.
Most people do not have the drive to hunt, dominate, or kill like old school aristocrats. They don’t want to raise friendly animals just to slaughter them. The kids are playing Pokémon where animals are magical friends.
If you’re a low status white male like us you probably mostly come from farmers who ate meat rarely, our ancestors would cry when the family cow died, when they went to Church they were encouraged to be more vegetarian. Their way of life wasn’t perfect but it was more human and aware of nature.
During the low Middle Ages the nobility still mostly ate plants, except for the occasional hunted animal and seafood. It’s only by the early 1400s that nobles in Britain for example started to begins suffering arthritis, gout, and other afflictions from God for eating mostly animal products.
Mehen, may I ask what you do for a living? Genuinely curious. Im trying to figure out where I can find like minded people with whome I can talk about such topics in real life. My peers are kinda matrix people unfortunately.
I’m pretty sure I remember him saying that he used to work in the healthcare industry but got fired for refusing the COVID vaccine, and now he works part time as an Amazon delivery driver.
@Mehen:
Thanks for the advice in the last post, yes I’m aware that I need to take a pretty high dose (~ 2.5 g) for the antidepressant effect (I took only ~ 1 g) but I took it at a public park again so I didn’t want to take a high dose like I did back in October, dog walkers ended up ruining my trip that time so I didn’t want to risk that happening again. I need to book a hotel room and take them there, or go to a REALLY secluded beach.
@Radagast:
Yeah I remember you wrote that stramonium is more stimulating than innoxia due to the higher atropine content, so I will take it first thing in the morning instead of before bed. Just one seed at first.
>I took it at a public park again so I didn’t want to take a high dose like I did back in October, dog walkers ended up ruining my trip that time so I didn’t want to risk that happening again
Normies with dogs are basically engaged in autistgenocide whenever they leave their home to walk around in a petty little circle with their beast. They just randomly let the animal walk up to anyone sitting in the grass somewhere. I’m all too familiar.
I think you want to find an even more secluded spot, but I don’t have perfect advice, it’s a known problem.
>Yeah I remember you wrote that stramonium is more stimulating than innoxia due to the higher atropine content, so I will take it first thing in the morning instead of before bed. Just one seed at first.
Honestly I recommend just getting innoxia or wrightii seeds if that’s an option and taking them before bed. Both are scopolamine dominant. Best to just let these plants work their magic while you’re asleep.
Holy shit you guys are arguing about the various benefits of scopolamine
This is fucking retarded
You are discussing DELIRIANTS
Why did Radagast speak against the DPH trend amongst the youth? Was it all a con?
Scopolamine means you see bizarre projections of your own mind that have no rhyme or reason.
There is no connection to your own subconscious, it is total insanity.
I’m very disappointed in you all.
> Mehen, may I ask what you do for a living? Genuinely curious. Im trying to figure out where I can find like minded people with whome I can talk about such topics in real life. My peers are kinda matrix people unfortunately.
Hahahaahah
Nice try, Jew.
I’m quite familiar with your kind’s psychological manipulations.
It’s not happening today.
This is unfortunate, because I was just on the cusp of posting a neat photo of myself, thinking this crowd is “my people”
But as always, there is a tiny subversive element wanting to control and direct it
I’m sure we dont even live on the same continent my friend.
But whatever confirms your bias, I guess.
>I’m sure we dont even live on the same continent my friend.
But whatever confirms your bias, I guess.
The Tribe spans many continents.
And they talk to each other.
They even have a centralized website collating all the WrongThinkers
https://canarymission.org/
I think the first philosophy book I picked up was Aristletes’s “Metaphysics,” but I think I threw it away after about five pages because it was so uninteresting.
I think the next book I picked up was Schopenhauer’s “On Suicide.” While reading it, I felt the futility of thinking about and talking about suicide, but I also wondered if thinking about suicide was a temporary deterrent to suicide, and if people think about it in order to pass it by without dying on the spot.
I think Camus’ “The Myth of Sisyphus,” Richard Bach’s “Jonathan the Seagull,” and J.D. Salinger’s “The Catcher in the Rye” were interesting in a similar style.
“When you are depressed you are healing the world, as opposed to consuming it.”
I got nuttin
“When you are depressed you are healing the world, as opposed to consuming it.”
Sounds like someone is suffering from delusions of grandeur.
In actuality, when you are depressed you are attempting to heal yourself, but unless you snap out of it, you end up consuming yourself.
>In actuality, when you are depressed you are attempting to heal yourself, but unless you snap out of it, you end up consuming yourself.
That’s an interesting take. There is probably something to it.
However what I find far more interesting is the idea proposed by scientific materialist atheist Israeli Sam Vaknin that “God” is no more lucky than you or I.
That “God” is just as frustrated and suffering as much as you and I. He uses our tiny little lives as “internal theater” to figure out what the HELL to do with Himself.
Vaknin proposes the idea that by each of us making the effort to heal our own cracked minds, we thereby contribute in some small part to feeding back to God this information and in so doing, help God become in a Better Being.
I’m curious what Tryptie and Karen have to say
Personally, my gut instinct is to reject anything proposed by “scientific materialist atheist Israeli”, which is why I for the most part reject the entire institution of psychiatry and big pharma, and consider it all to be medically unsound, invented by psychopaths.
Like most serial killers, the founders of psychiatry first conducted their mad scientist experiments on animals, but have since graduated to torturing humans, hiding under the guise of medical science.
Which is why I don’t identify myself with labels such as autist or schizoid, those terms were invented to diminish the true worth and creative capacity of the human spirit, by putting bright people in a box that permanently labels them as mentally ill and defective, even though they are not.
Avoid all psychiatrists as if they were the plague. Do not take prescription medication for any type of mental disorder, be that, depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, OCD, or bi-polar disorder. It’s going to fuck you up worse than what you were before. And stay out of mental institutions, those are not places of healing, it’s where you become a guinea pig for medical experimentation, at the hands of mad scientists.
> Personally, my gut instinct is to reject anything proposed by “scientific materialist atheist Israeli”,
Yeah, I was just laying it on thick for fun.
Vaknin is all of those things (he blocked me when I called out his Tribe) but I still think this observation of his has some merit.
He’s a smart guy (a former Israeli involved in crimes of embezzlement) who seems to at least have a had a “come to Jesus” moment where he puked his guts out in a jail cell as he faced his own demons and Jewyness
His explication of narcissistic personality disorder is perhaps a telling-on-himself dynamic as it exposes what you and I know about the Tribe.
This does not diminish his keen observations in any way.
I say the same thing about Christopher Hyatt, author of “The Psychopath’s Bible”
I love Hyatt for mentoring me in many ways, but if you read with discernment, you gain a window into the soul of his Tribe (he was a high-order official in the Ordo Templi Orientis aka “O.T.O”)
Knowledge is good.
> Do not take prescription medication for any type of mental disorder, be that, depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, OCD, or bi-polar disorder
This is reckless. I think both schizophrenia and bi-polar are well established as biological in origin.
They’re not, really. I wouldn’t necessarily advise someone to just randomly stop taking their medication if its genuinely helping them or whatever, but these things have a supernatural component to them for sure. Many of the symptoms of schizophrenia for example are caused by interdimensional beings producing synchronicities in the external world, influencing peoples’ thoughts and emotions through immaterial means, and so on, and that is why the symptoms manifest in some of the particular ways they do (“delusions of reference”, thought insertion, audio-visual hallucinations, and so on). Having been attacked by supernatural beings in this way myself, I could pretty clearly see the parallels through my own experiences though I am not schizophrenic. Things like depression and anxiety can likewise be caused, or at the very least, massively exacerbated by basically demons attaching to and attacking/feeding off of someone’s energy body over a long period of time.
“I think both schizophrenia and bi-polar are well established as biological in origin.”
I know that’s the official consensus of “the Experts”, but I’m not convinced its true. I think there is much more going on, like Tryptie said, I think there is an inter-dimensional component it, perhaps you could call it demonic possession. And if that is really the case, no psychiatric medication will ever solve that problem, if anything it’ll end up turning them into a chemically lobotomized zombie, who although they may no longer feel upset by “the noise”, they don’t really think or feel much of anything any more.
But also, there may be a technological component to it as well, where some people really are being fucked with intentionally. They call it targeted individuals, where they are unwitting lab rats in some type of MK-ULTRA experiment. I know a lot of those people are dismissed as crazy, and maybe some of them are, but the technology really does exist, you can find patents for it, though I don’t have the links on hand, things like voice to skull technology, where people are hearing voices that no one else can hear, and told they are crazy, but their not, because the voices are being remotely beamed into their head, utilized as a tool of psychological warfare, but in many cases there just experiments to perfect the technology.
Also, I knew three people in high school that were diagnosed schizophrenic, and the only one that said the medication helped, ended up committing suicide. But yeah, I don’t advocate stopping prescription medication abruptly, especially if you don’t have access to alternative resources, but it’s best not get on it in the first place, if you can help it.
And of course if you feel like the medication is making you feel better, you should take it, but I honestly don’t know of anyone diagnosed with any major mental illness who was ever cured by there psychiatric medications. It’s just something they have to take for the rest of there life, and because of all the negative side effects they usually don’t live very long.
By the way, I consider the God of the Bible, also known as “Yahweh” and “Jehovah”, to be synonymous with “Satan”, “the Devil”, “Lucifer”, meaning he’s an imposter, the real “God”, perhaps could be referred to has “Heavenly Father”, but either way, he is something else and somewhere else, and if you think the God of the Bible is Good, you’ve been had.
Big Bird, are you Tereza Coraggio by any chance?
Tryptie, I realize this is a sensitive subject, but if you don’t mind me asking:
Do you still have a big swinging dong between your legs?
I ask because I’ve recently watched some Brazilian tranny porn and it blew my mind.
I realize you are probably AGP and therefore not the pseudo-sexy Thai-boy type.
That’s cool. I have been realizing the extent of my developmental retardation.
I used to be a man-Whore, fucking women indiscriminately, but I now realize I was just an infant looking for a mother figure. But my superego (along with RedPill wisdom) told me that just makes me a little bitch. I don’t want to be a little bitch!
At the same time, as Fucko has noted, I’m a quasi-faggot.
I had a father with a brutal angry temper who made me feel like shit. As a result of this, I find myself drawn to father figures even though I think gay sex is fucking gross
I’m so messed up. I yearn for a mother figure who didn’t abandon me like my mother did, and also yearn for a father figure who is something like a “coach” who gently encourages me, rather than the strict authoritarian who yelled at me like a drill sergeant
I find myself oscillating between pseudo-mother figures and pseudo-father figures.
I’m beginning to think folks like you might just be what the doctor ordered.
Elevated feminine and masculine energies in one body.
Would your people accept me?
Would you cradle me in your arms?
I’m fucking desperate man
Yeah I still have a penis, though I had an orchiectomy (no balls) like 5 years ago. The entire experience around that surgery was a pretty trippy story in and of itself btw.
Before I transitioned, my experience of dysphoria had been mostly related to my outward physical appearance and social role, how my genitals were didn’t bother me in that same way, so in the end I just didn’t change that. Some trans women have genital dysphoria and others don’t, it just varies from person to person.
I definitely don’t look like a ‘thai-boy’ lmao, I’m white for one thing. I just look like a normal woman really; brown hair, brown eyes, 175cm, (I might dye my hair soon though), I’m a bit on the curvy side though and I could probably lose like 5-10 kg, my roommate insists I’m not fat but I don’t believe her. Transitioning turned out well for me and I’m super happy with my outcome and appearance in general. I mean, nothing I write here would actually overwrite whatever mental image you already have of “a trans woman” so you’d have to somehow convince me to send you a photo or something.
>I used to be a man-Whore, fucking women indiscriminately, but I now realize I was just an infant looking for a mother figure. But my superego (along with RedPill wisdom) told me that just makes me a little bitch. I don’t want to be a little bitch!…
This is a lot of brainworms to unpack. I’m not really sure where to start with any of it. I’m sorry to hear about your father, I had an abusive mother myself. I think that type of thing is difficult no matter what.
I think it’s pretty normal to want like a father figure or a healthy paternal sort of role to be present in your life and I don’t think that has to necessarily be tied into sex or sexuality whatsoever, I’ve heard it said that we exist in a culture where men are conditioned to associate any form of emotional intimacy between men as something homosexual but I don’t think it would have to be at all. I guess I’d also like to say that a lot of the “”redpill”” type of information you can find on the internet with regards to gender and sexuality and stuff, is just psyops designed to take advantage of peoples’ feelings of insecurity more or less.
I’m not exactly sure what you were asking of me but sure, I accept you! I’m open to generally chat about stuff too if you want.
“I struggle to really take people seriously, when they seek to gain metaphysical insight or spiritual liberation and yet continue to eat meat. The monks of the Benedictine tradition, members of the Sangha, Pythagoreans, gnostic sects like the Cathars, Vaishnavite households, Jainist practitioners, they all have a simple rule: They don’t eat meat.”
This is my main issue with the radical vegans. They think the opposite of being a meat eater means being a vegan, but they ignore the middle path choice of vegetarianism. I’m just going to make a broad generalization here, because it’s late where I am, but from what I have learned from reading various philosophical and religious traditions that advocated the abstention of meat as an important step in on the spiritual path, most of them were advocating vegetarianism, which means eating animal products that do not require the death of the animal or needless suffering, but they didn’t advocate for veganism. Also, I personally would not base my life on the teachings of the Jains as a moral example, those people maybe don’t eat or kill animals, but they are definitely cannibalizing there own bodies. Seriously, it’s a masochist lifestyle masquerading as a spiritual path.
Anyway, I’ll get to the point here, I can understand the argument for vegetarianism, but veganism is not vegetarianism, to equate the two as being the same is dishonest, and I don’t think there is much support for veganism in any significant literature from the classical era, but if you can find it, please let us know.
Also, I might add, I’ve noticed you’ve mentioned the garden of Eden as being a vegan paradise. Well, from my sources, the garden of Eden did not exist on this planet, and didn’t even exist in the material world of three dimensional space. It occurred in a spiritual dimension, some call it the 5th dimension, and the fall was all about falling down into a lower vibrational frequency, what we know as planet Earth, the world we now live in.
Point is, of course they were vegan, because they were spirit bodies, they didn’t eat food at all, in the way that we know it, instead they absorbed all the nutrients they needed in the form of pure unadulterated light.
Regarding vegetarianism as referenced in the previous comment:
This is not a sensible middle ground between two extremes, in the same sense that “holocausting half of the jews” would not be an enlightened middle path between doing the holocaust versus being against genocide. When you eat things like eggs, milk, cheese, and so on, these products are still coming from a system which causes lovecraftian amounts of mass-suffering to the creatures who are forced to take part in it.
For example, to produce cow milk, dairy cows are repeatedly raped and bred so that they are pregnant as often as possible. They forcibly take semen from a bull and insert it into the cow’s vagina with a machine – a process which requires the farmer to stick his hand up the cow’s ass all the way to the wrist in order to complete. The cow’s babies are forcibly separated from their mother after giving birth. The cows are hooked up to milking machines, often multiple times a day, and they end up with inflamed mammary glands as well as numerous other diseases from stress, poor living conditions, poor sanitary conditions, and overcrowding. Dairy cows are typically slaughtered well before the end of their natural lifespans, due to their bodies becoming so exhausted from a life of being abused. So no, you cannot support the production of milk products without supporting both rape and murder on an industrial scale. In a sane world, it should not be considered radical in the slightest to be against this.
I see most carnists in general as drug addicts, provided they are aware of the issues at stake, who are engaged in a form of bargaining so that they don’t have to give up their drug of choice. Looking at the behaviour of other groups of people throughout history as an excuse for our own choices is a form of deflection, we should be able to deduce by ourselves what the right course of action would be, independently of the ideas of ancient religious traditions such as the Jains or what have you.
“For example, to produce cow milk, dairy cows are repeatedly raped and bred so that they are pregnant as often as possible.”
Yeah, it doesn’t have to be that way. I think your problem is with large scale industrialization. If you keep it small scale and local, like small family farms, that don’t view their farm animals as soulless commodities, but as family members, each contributing their part, the way it used to be, it would look completely different then that.
I don’t see domestication and captivity as synonymous with cruelty, I see animals as friends. And if you have a farm and you have work animals, food producing animals, that you don’t have to kill to produce food, I see, for instance, raising chickens for their eggs, as being no different than human family members all working together, having their own unique roles and work duties, contributing to the mutual benefit of the whole family.
>I don’t see domestication and captivity as synonymous with cruelty, I see animals as friends. And if you have a farm and you have work animals, food producing animals, that you don’t have to kill to produce food, I see, for instance, raising chickens for their eggs, as being no different than human family members all working together, having their own unique roles and work duties, contributing to the mutual benefit of the whole family.
This is exactly equivalent to an argument that a slave owner would use for why keeping slaves is moral. “I treat them like family!” no you don’t, unless your father is Sauron or you have literally the worst family of all time.
The fact that you’re ripping these animals out of the natural world and forcing them to give you “stuff” without any way for them to revoke their consent or have any say in it whatsoever, is DEFINTIIONALLY treating them like soulless commodities. Doing the same thing on a smaller scale and occasionally giving the animal a headpat or something doesn’t magically turn it into a morally good activity.
If you chain someone in your basement and force them to do work for you for the entirety of their natural lives, but you claim it’s “not cruel” and that you actually see the person as a friend, it doesn’t magically make what you’re doing okay. And these terms, like “family farm” or “local”, amount to buzzwords: they are terms which don’t actually mean anything in practice when it comes to the welfare of the animal. When it comes to the incomprehensible, hellish horrors that livestock animals undergo, it’s happening to 100 percent of them with perhaps a rounding error. These industrial-scale practices don’t exist for no reason. There is no such thing as large-scale milk production for hundreds of millions or billions of people, without large-scale industrialization. 99 percent of farmed animals in the united states live on factory farms. It already takes like 25 percent of the land surface of the earth to grow livestock, and this is with the efficiency of industrialized farming already factored in. Each cow, for example, is bred and forced to produce and extremely unhealthy and unnatural amount of milk – so to eliminate this one specific aspect of the overall practice you suddenly need several times more dairy cows to make the same amount of milk as before. If you didn’t want animal agriculture to be the eldritch nightmare it presently is, but you also didn’t want most people to have to go vegan in practice, you would need multiple planets worth of land to do so. It’s completely aside from the point, though, because uncle strawman’s local family-owned hypothetical animal ranch is still extremely immoral, just on a smaller scale.